Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
3.6 Of the Controlling Powers of the Eighth ManTatiyavagga

Controverted Point: That the five controlling powers are absent in a person of the Eighth Stage.Aṭṭhamakassaindriyakathā

Controverted PointAṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi saddhindriyanti? Theravādin:You must deny him faith, if you deny in him the controlling power of faith. So also for the other four. But you will not go as far as that.Contrariwise, you do allow that heas Eighth Manhas faith and the rest, but you go no further.Yet you are prepared to admit, with respect to other controlling powers—e.g., mind, gladness, etc.… and psychic life—that whoso has the attribute, has also the controlling power of it.Why draw the line at those five?as, in fact, you do.Āmantā. as Eighth ManAṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi saddhāti? You contend that, whereas the controlling power of faith is absent in him, faith itself is not absent. That whereas the controlling powers of energy, mindfulness, concentration, and reason are absent in him, he is neither indolent, nor heedless, nor unsteady or mentally vacillating, nor stupid, nor deaf, nor dumb.Na hevaṁ vattabbe. You acknowledge that his faith, energy, etc., areof the saving kind calledforth-leading, yet you do not credit him with the controlling powersin which such attributes consist.Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi vīriyindriyaṁ …pe… of the saving kind callednatthi satindriyaṁ …pe… in which such attributes consist.natthi samādhindriyaṁ …pe… You admit the attainment both of the attributes and of these five controlling powers in the person who is practising that he may realize the fruit of Once-Returning, of Never-Returning, of Arahantship, but you deny the latter for the Eighth Man alone; the one goes with the other!natthi paññindriyanti? Finally, is there not a Suttanta in which the Exalted One said:Āmantā. “The five controlling powers,bhikkhus—which are they? The controlling powers that are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, understanding. From the completion and perfection of these five, a man becomes Arahant. Held in a weaker degree, the holder becomes one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Arahantship; in a yet weaker degree the holder becomes a Never-Returner; in a yet weaker degree, one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Never-Returning; in a yet weaker degree, a Once-Returner; in a yet weaker degree, one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Once-Returning; in a yet weaker degree, a Stream-Winner; in a yet weaker degree, one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Stream-Winning. In whom these five controlling powers are in every way, and everywhere wholly absent, he, I declare, is one who stands without, in the ranks of the average man”?Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi paññāti? Yet you would not say that the Eighth Man stood thus without? Hence you must concede that the five controlling powers are present in him.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Shwe Zan AungAṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhāti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Āmantā. Manfred WierichAṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhindriyanti? Ven. VimalaNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Josephine Tobinaṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi vīriyaṁ …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.atthi sati … Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.atthi samādhi … Cross-references were linked.atthi paññāti? Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Āmantā. Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññindriyanti? The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, atthi manindriyanti? All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, atthi saddhindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, atthi manindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi somanassaṁ, atthi somanassindriyaṁ, atthi jīvitaṁ, atthi jīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, atthi saddhindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi jīvitaṁ, atthi jīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa …pe… atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, natthi manindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi somanassaṁ, natthi somanassindriyanti …pe… atthi jīvitaṁ, natthi jīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, natthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, natthi manindriyanti? Atthi somanassaṁ, natthi somanassindriyanti? Atthi jīvitaṁ, natthi jīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamako puggalo assaddhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi vīriyindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamako puggalo kusīto hīnavīriyoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi satindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamako puggalo muṭṭhassati asampajānoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi samādhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamako puggalo asamāhito vibbhantacittoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamako puggalo duppañño elamūgoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, sā ca saddhā niyyānikāti? Āmantā. Hañci aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, sā ca saddhā niyyānikā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi saddhindriyan”ti. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi vīriyaṁ, tañca vīriyaṁ niyyānikaṁ; atthi sati, sā ca sati niyyānikā; atthi samādhi, so ca samādhi niyyāniko; atthi paññā, sā ca paññā niyyānikāti? Āmantā. Hañci aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, sā ca paññā niyyānikā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi paññindriyan”ti.

Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, atthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, atthi saddhindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa … arahattasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, atthi saddhindriyaṁ …pe… atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, natthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa atthi paññā, natthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti …pe… atthi paññā, natthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa … arahattasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa atthi paññā, natthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi pañcindriyānīti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—“pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pañca? Saddhindriyaṁ, vīriyindriyaṁ, satindriyaṁ, samādhindriyaṁ, paññindriyaṁ—imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañcindriyāni. Imesaṁ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṁ indriyānaṁ samattā paripūrattā arahā hoti. Tato mudutarehi arahattasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno hoti, tato mudutarehi anāgāmī hoti, tato mudutarehi anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno hoti, tato mudutarehi sakadāgāmī hoti, tato mudutarehi sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno hoti, tato mudutarehi sotāpanno hoti, tato mudutarehi sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno hoti. Yassa kho, bhikkhave, imāni pañcindriyāni sabbena sabbaṁ sabbathā sabbaṁ natthi, tamahaṁ ‘bāhiro puthujjanapakkhe ṭhito’ti vadāmī”ti. Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamako puggalo bāhiro puthujjanapakkhe ṭhitoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… tena hi aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi pañcindriyānīti.

Aṭṭhamakassa indriyakathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
3.6 Of the Controlling Powers of the Eighth Man

Controverted Point: That the five controlling powers are absent in a person of the Eighth Stage.

Controverted PointTheravādin:You must deny him faith, if you deny in him the controlling power of faith. So also for the other four. But you will not go as far as that.Contrariwise, you do allow that heas Eighth Manhas faith and the rest, but you go no further.Yet you are prepared to admit, with respect to other controlling powers—e.g., mind, gladness, etc.… and psychic life—that whoso has the attribute, has also the controlling power of it.Why draw the line at those five?as, in fact, you do.as Eighth ManYou contend that, whereas the controlling power of faith is absent in him, faith itself is not absent. That whereas the controlling powers of energy, mindfulness, concentration, and reason are absent in him, he is neither indolent, nor heedless, nor unsteady or mentally vacillating, nor stupid, nor deaf, nor dumb.You acknowledge that his faith, energy, etc., areof the saving kind calledforth-leading, yet you do not credit him with the controlling powersin which such attributes consist.of the saving kind calledin which such attributes consist.You admit the attainment both of the attributes and of these five controlling powers in the person who is practising that he may realize the fruit of Once-Returning, of Never-Returning, of Arahantship, but you deny the latter for the Eighth Man alone; the one goes with the other!Finally, is there not a Suttanta in which the Exalted One said:“The five controlling powers,bhikkhus—which are they? The controlling powers that are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, understanding. From the completion and perfection of these five, a man becomes Arahant. Held in a weaker degree, the holder becomes one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Arahantship; in a yet weaker degree the holder becomes a Never-Returner; in a yet weaker degree, one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Never-Returning; in a yet weaker degree, a Once-Returner; in a yet weaker degree, one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Once-Returning; in a yet weaker degree, a Stream-Winner; in a yet weaker degree, one who is practising that he may realize the Fruit of Stream-Winning. In whom these five controlling powers are in every way, and everywhere wholly absent, he, I declare, is one who stands without, in the ranks of the average man”?Yet you would not say that the Eighth Man stood thus without? Hence you must concede that the five controlling powers are present in him.

Shwe Zan AungThis SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. VimalaJosephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.

Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Tatiyavagga

Aṭṭhamakassaindriyakathā

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi saddhāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi vīriyindriyaṁ …pe… natthi satindriyaṁ …pe… natthi samādhindriyaṁ …pe… natthi paññindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa natthi paññāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhāti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi vīriyaṁ …pe… atthi sati … atthi samādhi … atthi paññāti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, atthi manindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, atthi saddhindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, atthi manindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi paññā, atthi paññindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, natthi manindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa indriyakathā niṭṭhitā.

Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
3.6 Of the Controlling Powers of the Eighth ManTatiyavagga

Controverted Point: That the five controlling powers are absent in a person of the Eighth Stage.Aṭṭhamakassaindriyakathā

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi saddhā, natthi saddhindriyanti? Āmantā. Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa atthi mano, natthi manindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Aṭṭhamakassa indriyakathā niṭṭhitā.