Controverted PointTathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Theravādin:If your proposition is true, you must also affirm that power of the Tathāgata is power of the disciple and conversely, whether you take power in general, or this or that power, or power of this or that sort. And you must also affirm that the disciple's previous application, previous line of conduct, instruction in the Doctrine, teaching of the Doctrine, are of the same sort as those of the Tathāgata. But all thesecorollariesyou deny … .Āmantā. corollariesTathāgatabalaṁ sāvakabalaṁ, sāvakabalaṁ tathāgatabalanti? You affirmof coursethat the Tathāgata is Conqueror, Master, Buddha Supreme, All-knowing, All-seeing, Lord of the Norm, the Fountain-head of the Norm. But you would refuse these titles to disciples. Nor will you admit of the disciples, as you do of the Tathāgata, that he brings into being a Way where no way was, produces a Way that had not been called into being, proclaims a Way untold, is knower and seer of the Way and adept therein.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe…

of courseTathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? If you affirm thatone of the Tathāgata's powers: thatof understanding as they really are the different degrees of development in our controlling powers (indriyāni) is held by disciples in common with him, you must also allow that a disciple is all-knowing, all-seeing.Āmantā. one of the Tathāgata's powers: thatTaññeva tathāgatabalaṁ taṁ sāvakabalaṁ, taññeva sāvakabalaṁ taṁ tathāgatabalanti? Andhaka:But you will admit that if a disciple can distinguish a causal occasion from an occasion that is not causal, it were right to say that genuine insight of this kind is common to Tathāgata and disciple.But you refuse to say this… .Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Andhaka:Tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? But you refuse to say thisĀmantā. Again, you will admit that if a disciple knows, in its causal occasion and conditions, the result of actions undertaken in the past, future, and present, it were right to say that genuine insight of this kind is common to Tathāgata and disciple.This, too, you refuse to say.Yādisaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ tādisaṁ sāvakabalaṁ, yādisaṁ sāvakabalaṁ tādisaṁ tathāgatabalanti? This, too, you refuse to say.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

A similar implication holds good with respect to the power of knowing the tendency of any course of action, of knowing the worlds of manifold and intrinsically differentelements; of knowing the manifold things beings have done from free choice, of knowing the attainments inJhānaor Deliverance or Concentration—their impurities, their purity, and emergence from them; of knowing how to remember former lives; of knowing whence beings are deceasing and where they are being reborn. All these corollaries, namely, that if a disciple knows, where a Tathāgata knows, the knowledge is common to both, you deny. Finally,are not the intoxicants as extinct for a disciple as for a Tathāgata? Or is there any difference between their extinction for a Tathāgata and their extinction for a disciple, or between theensuingemancipation for a Tathāgata and that for a disciple? “None” you say; then surely my proposition holds.Tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? ensuingĀmantā. Again, you have admitted that a Tathāgata shares the power of insight into the extinction as it really is of intoxicants, in common with the disciple. But you will not admit—though you surely must—that this is the case with his knowledge of real causal antecedents and such as are not real … and also of the decease and rebirth of beings.Yādiso tathāgatassa pubbayogo pubbacariyā dhammakkhānaṁ dhammadesanā tādiso sāvakassa pubbayogo pubbacariyā dhammakkhānaṁ dhammadesanāti? You affirm then that the power of the Tathāgata's insight to discern as it really is a causal antecedent and one that is not, is not held in common by disciples. Yet you refuse to draw this line in the case of the extinction of intoxicants. Similarly, in the case of the remaining eight powers—which is absurd.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

which is absurd.Tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Again, you admit that the power of the Tathāgata's insight to know as they really are the degrees of development in controlling powers is not held in common with the disciples. Yet you will not admit as much with regard to the insight into what are really causal antecedents and whatare not,… nor of the insight into the extinction of intoxicants. (Here, on the contrary, you find powers held in common.)Āmantā. On the other hand, you admit a common power in the discernment of what is really a causal occasion … and of the extinction of intoxicants. But you will not equally admit a common power in discernment of degrees of development in controlling powers—how is this?Tathāgato jino satthā sammāsambuddho sabbaññū sabbadassāvī dhammassāmī dhammappaṭisaraṇoti? Shwe Zan AungĀmantā. This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Sāvako jino satthā sammāsambuddho sabbaññū sabbadassāvī dhammassāmī dhammappaṭisaraṇoti? Manfred WierichNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Ven. VimalaTathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Josephine TobinĀmantā. Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Tathāgato anuppannassa maggassa uppādetā asañjātassa maggassa sañjanetā anakkhātassa maggassa akkhātā maggaññū maggavidū maggakovidoti? Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Āmantā. Cross-references were linked.Sāvako anuppannassa maggassa uppādetā asañjātassa maggassa sañjanetā anakkhātassa maggassa akkhātā maggaññū maggavidū maggakovidoti? Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.Indriyaparopariyattaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Āmantā. This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Sāvako sabbaññū sabbadassāvīti? All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sāvako ṭhānāṭhānaṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako ṭhānāṭhānaṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“ṭhānāṭhānaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako atītānāgatapaccuppannānaṁ kammasamādānānaṁ ṭhānaso hetuso vipākaṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako atītānāgatapaccuppannānaṁ kammasamādānānaṁ ṭhānaso hetuso vipākaṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“atītānāgatapaccuppannānaṁ kammasamādānānaṁ ṭhānaso hetuso vipākaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako sabbatthagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako sabbatthagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“sabbatthagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako anekadhātuṁ nānādhātuṁ lokaṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako anekadhātuṁ nānādhātuṁ lokaṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“anekadhātuṁ nānādhātuṁ lokaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako sattānaṁ nānādhimuttikataṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako sattānaṁ nānādhimuttikataṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“sattānaṁ nānādhimuttikataṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako jhānavimokkhasamādhisamāpattīnaṁ saṅkilesaṁ vodānaṁ vuṭṭhānaṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako jhānavimokkhasamādhisamāpattīnaṁ saṅkilesaṁ vodānaṁ vuṭṭhānaṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“jhānavimokkhasamādhisamāpattīnaṁ saṅkilesaṁ vodānaṁ vuṭṭhānaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako pubbenivāsānussatiṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako pubbenivāsānussatiṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“pubbenivāsānussati yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Sāvako sattānaṁ cutūpapātaṁ jānātīti? Āmantā. Hañci sāvako sattānaṁ cutūpapātaṁ jānāti, tena vata re vattabbe—“sattānaṁ cutūpapātaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Nanu tathāgatassāpi āsavā khīṇā sāvakassāpi āsavā khīṇāti? Āmantā. Atthi kiñci nānākaraṇaṁ tathāgatassa vā sāvakassa vā āsavakkhayena vā āsavakkhayaṁ vimuttiyā vā vimuttīti? Natthi. Hañci natthi kiñci nānākaraṇaṁ tathāgatassa vā sāvakassa vā āsavakkhayena vā āsavakkhayaṁ vimuttiyā vā vimutti, tena vata re vattabbe—“āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇan”ti.

Āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Ṭhānāṭhāne yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Sattānaṁ cutūpapāte yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Ṭhānāṭhāne yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sattānaṁ cutūpapāte yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Indriyaparopariyattaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Ṭhānāṭhāne yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Indriyaparopariyattaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā …pe…. Āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakaasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Ṭhānāṭhāne yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Indriyaparopariyattaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Āsavānaṁ khaye yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Āmantā. Indriyaparopariyattaṁ yathābhūtaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathāgatabalaṁ sāvakasādhāraṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Balakathā niṭṭhitā.