Controverted PointNasuttāharaṇakathā

Theravādin:You maintain that,asaverage man, he does renounce them. Now by “renouncing” I imply that he renounces for ever, without remainder, severing all connection with them, them and their roots, and all desire for them, and all latent bias toward them; renounces them by Ariyan insight, by the Ariyan path; renounces them while experiencing the immutable; renounces them while realizing the Fruit of the Never-Returner. This you deny.Jahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādanti? And if, for “renouncing”, you substitute “arresting”, I claim the same implications, and you deny them.Āmantā. The person who works for the realization of the Never-Returner's Fruit: he renounces, he arrests in this thorough-going way—on that we are agreed. But does the average man? You deny thisno less than I.Accantaṁ jahati, anavasesaṁ jahati, appaṭisandhiyaṁ jahati, samūlaṁ jahati, sataṇhaṁ jahati, sānusayaṁ jahati, ariyena ñāṇena jahati, ariyena maggena jahati, akuppaṁ paṭivijjhanto jahati, anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto jahatīti? no less than I.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

But if you apply these words “renounce”, “arrest”in your limited meaningto the average man, you must also apply them, as meaning just so much and no more, to the candidate for the Fruit of the Never-Returner.Vikkhambheti puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādanti? in your limited meaningĀmantā. By what path (or means) does your average man renounce sensuous passions and ill-will?Accantaṁ vikkhambheti, anavasesaṁ vikkhambheti, appaṭisandhiyaṁ vikkhambheti, samūlaṁ vikkhambheti, sataṇhaṁ vikkhambheti, sānusayaṁ vikkhambheti, ariyena ñāṇena vikkhambheti, ariyena maggena vikkhambheti, akuppaṁ paṭivijjhanto vikkhambheti, anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto vikkhambhetīti? Sammitiya:By the path that belongs to the Rūpa-sphere.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sammitiya:Jahati anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca accantaṁ jahati, anavasesaṁ jahati …pe… Theravādin:Now does that path lead men outof the round of rebirth? Does it go to extinctionof Ill, to Enlightenment, to disaccumulation? Is it clear of intoxicants,fetters, ties, floods, bonds, hindrances, uninfected, clear of what makes for grasping and for corruption? Is it not true, on the other hand, that this path is not any of these things? How, then, can you say that by it an average man renounces sensuous passions and ill-will?anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto jahatīti? of the round of rebirthĀmantā. of IllJahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca accantaṁ jahati, anavasesaṁ jahati …pe… You agree that the path practised by the person who works for the realization of the Never-Returner's Fruit possesses all those qualities. But you should agree that that path belonging to the Rūpa-sphere possesses the same qualitiessince you claim that by it the average man renounces even as the Never-Returner renounces. But you admit it has the opposite qualities? Then, by parity of reasoning, you should find those opposite qualities in the path practised by the Never-Returnersince you claim that by it the latter arrives at the same renunciation as does the average man.anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto jahatīti? since you claim that by it the average man renounces even as the Never-Returner renouncesNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

since you claim that by it the latter arrives at the same renunciation as does the average man.Vikkhambheti anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca accantaṁ vikkhambheti, anavasesaṁ vikkhambheti …pe… You say that an average man, who is done with lusting after sensuous pleasures, as soon as he has comprehended the truth, becomes forthwith established in the fruition of the Never-Returner—why not add in Arahantship? Why stop short of this?anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto vikkhambhetīti? You must also admit that he has been practising the First, Second, and Third Paths at the same time, realizing the respective Fruits at the same time, and experiencing a combination of the respective contacts, feelings, perceptions, volitions, cognitions, believings, endeavours, reflections, and concentrationsall at different stages of evolutionwhich characterize each upward step.Āmantā. all at different stages of evolutionVikkhambheti puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca accantaṁ vikkhambheti, anavasesaṁ vikkhambheti …pe… Or, if he does not arriveat the Third Fruitin this way, by what path does he arrive? “By the path of the Never-Returner”, say you? Yet you deny that the renouncing of the three fetters—theory of a soul, doubt,and the contagion of mere rule and ritual—belongs to the work of the Never-Returning Path. Nay, you must admit itsince you leave your average man no other path, although it was said, was it not, by the Exalted One that the Fruit of theFirstPath was got by the renouncing of those three fetters?anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto vikkhambhetīti? at the Third FruitNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

since you leave your average man no other pathJahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca na accantaṁ jahati, na anavasesaṁ jahati …pe… Oncemore, you deny that, by that Third Path, gross, sensuous desires and the coarser forms of ill-will are renounced. Nay, but you are bound to admit this, for was it not said by the Exalted One that the Fruit of theSecondPath was got by the reducing sensuous passions and ill-will to a minimum?na anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto jahatīti? Finally, by your previous assertion concerning the average man's comprehending the truth's Fruit as soon as that comprehension arises.Āmantā. Sammitiya:But if the controverted question is to be answered by “No”, was it not said by the Exalted One:Jahati anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca na accantaṁ jahati …pe… Sammitiya:na anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto jahatīti? “In days of old on earth there livedSix teachers whom men flocked to hear.No flesh they ate for pity's sake,Freed from the bonds of sense-desires.No taste had they for fleshly lusts.In Brahma-heaven they found rebirth.“Disciples too of them there were,Souls by the hundred not a few.No flesh they ate for pity's sake,Freed from the bonds of sense-desires.No taste had they for fleshly lusts.In Brahma-heaven they found rebirth”?Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

“In days of old on earth there livedSix teachers whom men flocked to hear.No flesh they ate for pity's sake,Freed from the bonds of sense-desires.No taste had they for fleshly lusts.In Brahma-heaven they found rebirth.Vikkhambheti puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca na accantaṁ vikkhambheti, na anavasesaṁ vikkhambheti …pe… “Disciples too of them there were,Souls by the hundred not a few.No flesh they ate for pity's sake,Freed from the bonds of sense-desires.No taste had they for fleshly lusts.In Brahma-heaven they found rebirth”?na anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto vikkhambhetīti? Isthe Suttanta thus?Āmantā. Theravādin:Yes. But was it not said by the Exalted One:Vikkhambheti anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca na accantaṁ vikkhambheti, na anavasesaṁ vikkhambheti …pe… “Verily,bhikkhus, I say unto you that this teacher, Sunetta, though he lived long maintaining life on earth, did not get released from birth, decay, death, grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow, and despair. Why was he not released from ill? Because he had not enlightenment nor penetration concerning four things. What were they? The virtue, the concentration, the understanding, the emancipation of the Ariyan. Once,bhikkhus, these four are understood and penetrated, then is the thirst for becoming cut off, then is the lust for becoming perished, then is there no more coming back to be … .na anāgāmiphalaṁ sacchikaronto vikkhambhetīti? “The virtuous habit and the mind intent,Insight and utmost range of liberty:All these are known toGotamarenowned.His understanding mastering all its truth,The Buddha to the Brethren taught the Norm;Our Teacher, Seer, Ender of all Ill,Perfected life and wholly passed away”?Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

“The virtuous habit and the mind intent,Insight and utmost range of liberty:All these are known toGotamarenowned.His understanding mastering all its truth,The Buddha to the Brethren taught the Norm;Our Teacher, Seer, Ender of all Ill,Perfected life and wholly passed away”?Jahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādanti? Is the Suttanta thus? Hence it is not right to say “the average manas suchrenounces sensuous passions and ill-will”.Āmantā. as suchKatamena maggenāti? Shwe Zan AungRūpāvacarena maggenāti. This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Rūpāvacaro maggo niyyāniko khayagāmī bodhagāmī apacayagāmī anāsavo asaṁyojaniyo aganthaniyo anoghaniyo ayoganiyo anīvaraṇiyo aparāmaṭṭho anupādāniyo asaṅkilesiyoti? Manfred WierichNa hevaṁ vattabbe. Ven. VimalaNanu rūpāvacaro maggo aniyyāniko na khayagāmī na bodhagāmī na apacayagāmī sāsavo saṁyojaniyo …pe… saṅkilesiyoti? Josephine TobinĀmantā. Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Hañci rūpāvacaro maggo aniyyāniko na khayagāmī …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.saṅkilesiyo, no ca vata re vattabbe—Cross-references were linked.“jahati puthujjano rūpāvacarena maggena kāmarāgabyāpādan”ti.

Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Jahati anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo anāgāmimaggena kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca maggo niyyāniko khayagāmī bodhagāmī apacayagāmī anāsavo …pe… Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.asaṅkilesiyoti? The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Āmantā. This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Jahati puthujjano rūpāvacarena maggena kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca maggo niyyāniko khayagāmī bodhagāmī apacayagāmī anāsavo …pe… All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.asaṅkilesiyoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Jahati puthujjano rūpāvacarena maggena kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca maggo aniyyāniko na khayagāmī na bodhagāmī na apacayagāmī sāsavo …pe… saṅkilesiyoti? Āmantā. Jahati anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo anāgāmimaggena kāmarāgabyāpādaṁ, so ca maggo aniyyāniko na khayagāmī na bodhagāmī na apacayagāmī sāsavo …pe… saṅkilesiyoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Puthujjano kāmesu vītarāgo saha dhammābhisamayā anāgāmiphale saṇṭhātīti? Āmantā. Arahatte saṇṭhātīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Puthujjano kāmesu vītarāgo saha dhammābhisamayā anāgāmiphale saṇṭhātīti? Āmantā. Apubbaṁ acarimaṁ tayo magge bhāvetīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Apubbaṁ acarimaṁ tayo magge bhāvetīti? Āmantā. Apubbaṁ acarimaṁ tīṇi sāmaññaphalāni sacchikarotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Apubbaṁ acarimaṁ tīṇi sāmaññaphalāni sacchikarotīti? Āmantā. Tiṇṇaṁ phassānaṁ tissannaṁ vedanānaṁ tissannaṁ saññānaṁ tissannaṁ cetanānaṁ tiṇṇaṁ cittānaṁ tissannaṁ saddhānaṁ tiṇṇaṁ vīriyānaṁ tissannaṁ satīnaṁ tiṇṇaṁ samādhīnaṁ tissannaṁ paññānaṁ samodhānaṁ hotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Puthujjano kāmesu vītarāgo saha dhammābhisamayā anāgāmiphale saṇṭhātīti? Āmantā. Sotāpattimaggenāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sakadāgāmimaggenāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe. Katamena maggenāti? Anāgāmimaggenāti. Anāgāmimaggena sakkāyadiṭṭhiṁ vicikicchaṁ sīlabbataparāmāsaṁ jahatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Suttāharaṇakathā

Anāgāmimaggena sakkāyadiṭṭhiṁ vicikicchaṁ sīlabbataparāmāsaṁ jahatīti? Āmantā. Nanu tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ pahānā sotāpattiphalaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatāti? Āmantā. Hañci tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ pahānā sotāpattiphalaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“anāgāmimaggena sakkāyadiṭṭhiṁ vicikicchaṁ sīlabbataparāmāsaṁ jahatī”ti. Anāgāmimaggena oḷārikaṁ kāmarāgaṁ oḷārikaṁ byāpādaṁ jahatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Anāgāmimaggena oḷārikaṁ kāmarāgaṁ oḷārikaṁ byāpādaṁ jahatīti? Āmantā. Nanu kāmarāgabyāpādānaṁ tanubhāvā sakadāgāmiphalaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatāti? Āmantā. Hañci kāmarāgabyāpādānaṁ tanubhāvā sakadāgāmiphalaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“anāgāmimaggena oḷārikaṁ kāmarāgaṁ oḷārikaṁ byāpādaṁ jahatī”ti.

Puthujjano kāmesu vītarāgo saha dhammābhisamayā anāgāmiphale saṇṭhātīti? Āmantā. Ye keci dhammaṁ abhisamenti, sabbe te saha dhammābhisamayā anāgāmiphale saṇṭhahantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Na vattabbaṁ—“jahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādan”ti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—

“Ahesuṁ te atītaṁse, Cha satthāro yasassino; Nirāmagandhā karuṇedhimuttā, Kāmasaṁyojanātigā.

Kāmarāgaṁ virājetvā, brahmalokūpagā ahu; Ahesuṁ sāvakā tesaṁ, anekāni satānipi.

Nirāmagandhā karuṇedhimuttā, Kāmasaṁyojanātigā; Kāmarāgaṁ virājetvā, Brahmalokūpagā ahū”ti.

Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi jahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādanti.

Jahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādanti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—“so hi nāma, bhikkhave, sunetto satthā evaṁ dīghāyuko samāno evaṁ ciraṭṭhitiko aparimutto ahosi jātiyā jarāya maraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi ‘aparimutto dukkhasmā’ti vadāmi. Taṁ kissa hetu? Catunnaṁ dhammānaṁ ananubodhā appaṭivedhā. Katamesaṁ catunnaṁ? Ariyassa sīlassa ananubodhā appaṭivedhā, ariyassa samādhissa, ariyāya paññāya, ariyāya vimuttiyā ananubodhā appaṭivedhā. Tayidaṁ, bhikkhave, ariyaṁ sīlaṁ anubuddhaṁ paṭividdhaṁ, ariyo samādhi anubuddho paṭividdho, ariyā paññā anubuddhā paṭividdhā, ariyā vimutti anubuddhā paṭividdhā, ucchinnā bhavataṇhā, khīṇā bhavanetti, natthi dāni punabbhavo”ti.

“Sīlaṁ samādhi paññā ca, vimutti ca anuttarā; Anubuddhā ime dhammā, gotamena yasassinā.

Iti buddho abhiññāya, dhammamakkhāsi bhikkhunaṁ; Dukkhassantakaro satthā, cakkhumā parinibbuto”ti.

Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi na vattabbaṁ—“jahati puthujjano kāmarāgabyāpādan”ti.

Jahatikathā niṭṭhitā.