Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
8.10 Of Vital PowerAṭṭhamavagga

Controverted Point: That there is no such thing as a material vital power.Jīvitindriyakathā

Controverted PointNatthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Theravādin:If there is not, you imply also that, in material (organic) phenomena, there is no such thing as “a term of life, or a subsisting, no going on, being kept going on, no progress, procedure or preservation of them”—but youdeny that; in fact, you maintain the opposite. Hence your proposition falls through.Āmantā. With regard to the immaterial, you affirm both the existence of immaterial vital power and also its continuity, going on, etc. Why do you affirm the latter only, and deny the former?Natthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanāti? You admit that the life-term of immaterial organic phenomena is immaterial vital power: why not admit the corresponding counterpart in the case of material organic power? Why is it wrong to deny the latter when you admit the former?Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… You say that, for you, the life-term of material organic phenomena is an immaterial vital power? Would you then maintain the contrary? No? Why not?Bothvital powers, you say, are immaterial. It seems to me you could with equal plausibility say that both were material.atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanāti? You will admit that vital power is still present in one who has fallen into a cataleptic trance. Yet you could not call his vital power (he being unconscious) immaterial. In which aggregates is the vital power included? In that of mental coefficients, you say? But is that aggregate existent in one who has attained trance? “No”, you say? I repeat my question. “Yes”, you now say. But if anyone in trance has mental coefficients, he will also have the other mental aggregates—feeling, perception, cognitive consciousness. “No”, you say? I repeat my question. “Yes”, you now say. Then that person cannot be in a cataleptic trance.Āmantā. If there be no material vital power, no vital power can exist for the inmates of the unconscious sphere, for how can they have an immaterial (or mental) vital power? The argument above as to mental coefficients, which you say they have, applies to them also. They cannot be as they are and yet possess all five aggregates, as in a five mode existence.Hañci atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, no ca vata re vattabbe—If vital power be wholly psychical, it must be affected by mental conditions; for instance,you will admit that vital power, springing from a consciousness that seeks rebirth, must, when that consciousness breaks off, be itself broken off in part. Now, would you say the same of a purely mental phase such as “contact” (or mental reaction to stimulus)? Why not? You mean that contact would be broken off, not in part, but entirely? Now, would you say the same of vital powerit being, as you say, not material? You deny … .“natthi rūpajīvitindriyan”ti.

If vital power be wholly psychical, it must be affected by mental conditions; for instance,Atthi arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, atthi arūpajīvitindriyanti? it being, as you say, not materialĀmantā. Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Are there then two vital powers (material and immaterial)?Atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, atthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Then you are committed to this—that we live with two lives, die with two deaths?atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, natthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Āmantā. Theravādin:Nay, that cannot truly be said … .Atthi arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, natthi arūpajīvitindriyanti? Shwe Zan AungNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu arūpajīvitindriyanti? Manfred WierichĀmantā. Ven. VimalaRūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu rūpajīvitindriyanti? Josephine TobinNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.“rūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Cross-references were linked.Āmantā. Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.“arūpajīvitindriyan”ti? The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu arūpajīvitindriyanti? All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.Āmantā. Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu rūpajīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—“rūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Āmantā. Rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—“arūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Rūpīnañca arūpīnañca dhammānaṁ āyu arūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Rūpīnañca arūpīnañca dhammānaṁ āyu rūpajīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Rūpīnañca arūpīnañca dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—“rūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Āmantā. Rūpīnañca arūpīnañca dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—“arūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… natthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa natthi jīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi jīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Hañci nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi jīvitindriyaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“natthi rūpajīvitindriyan”ti.

Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi jīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Katamakkhandhapariyāpannanti? Saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannanti. Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi saṅkhārakkhandhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi saṅkhārakkhandhoti? Āmantā. Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi vedanākkhandho …pe… saññākkhandho …pe… viññāṇakkhandhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Nirodhaṁ samāpannassa atthi vedanākkhandho …pe… saññākkhandho …pe… viññāṇakkhandhoti? Āmantā. Na nirodhaṁ samāpannoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Asaññasattānaṁ natthi jīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Asaññasattānaṁ atthi jīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Hañci asaññasattānaṁ atthi jīvitindriyaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“natthi rūpajīvitindriyan”ti. Asaññasattānaṁ atthi jīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Katamakkhandhapariyāpannanti? Saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannanti. Asaññasattānaṁ atthi saṅkhārakkhandhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Asaññasattānaṁ atthi saṅkhārakkhandhoti? Āmantā. Asaññasattānaṁ atthi vedanākkhandho …pe… saññākkhandho …pe… viññāṇakkhandhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Asaññasattānaṁ atthi vedanākkhandho …pe… saññākkhandho …pe… viññāṇakkhandhoti? Āmantā. Pañcavokārabhavoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Upapattesiyena cittena samuṭṭhitaṁ jīvitindriyaṁ upapattesiye citte bhijjamāne ekadesaṁ bhijjatīti? Āmantā. Upapattesiyena cittena samuṭṭhito phasso upapattesiye citte bhijjamāne ekadeso bhijjatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Upapattesiyena cittena samuṭṭhito phasso upapattesiye citte bhijjamāne anavaseso bhijjatīti? Āmantā. Upapattesiyena cittena samuṭṭhitaṁ jīvitindriyaṁ upapattesiye citte bhijjamāne anavasesaṁ bhijjatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Dve jīvitindriyānīti? Āmantā. Dvīhi jīvitehi jīvati, dvīhi maraṇehi mīyatīti? Āmantā.

Jīvitindriyakathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
8.10 Of Vital Power

Controverted Point: That there is no such thing as a material vital power.

Controverted PointTheravādin:If there is not, you imply also that, in material (organic) phenomena, there is no such thing as “a term of life, or a subsisting, no going on, being kept going on, no progress, procedure or preservation of them”—but youdeny that; in fact, you maintain the opposite. Hence your proposition falls through.With regard to the immaterial, you affirm both the existence of immaterial vital power and also its continuity, going on, etc. Why do you affirm the latter only, and deny the former?You admit that the life-term of immaterial organic phenomena is immaterial vital power: why not admit the corresponding counterpart in the case of material organic power? Why is it wrong to deny the latter when you admit the former?You say that, for you, the life-term of material organic phenomena is an immaterial vital power? Would you then maintain the contrary? No? Why not?Bothvital powers, you say, are immaterial. It seems to me you could with equal plausibility say that both were material.You will admit that vital power is still present in one who has fallen into a cataleptic trance. Yet you could not call his vital power (he being unconscious) immaterial. In which aggregates is the vital power included? In that of mental coefficients, you say? But is that aggregate existent in one who has attained trance? “No”, you say? I repeat my question. “Yes”, you now say. But if anyone in trance has mental coefficients, he will also have the other mental aggregates—feeling, perception, cognitive consciousness. “No”, you say? I repeat my question. “Yes”, you now say. Then that person cannot be in a cataleptic trance.If there be no material vital power, no vital power can exist for the inmates of the unconscious sphere, for how can they have an immaterial (or mental) vital power? The argument above as to mental coefficients, which you say they have, applies to them also. They cannot be as they are and yet possess all five aggregates, as in a five mode existence.If vital power be wholly psychical, it must be affected by mental conditions; for instance,you will admit that vital power, springing from a consciousness that seeks rebirth, must, when that consciousness breaks off, be itself broken off in part. Now, would you say the same of a purely mental phase such as “contact” (or mental reaction to stimulus)? Why not? You mean that contact would be broken off, not in part, but entirely? Now, would you say the same of vital powerit being, as you say, not material? You deny … .

If vital power be wholly psychical, it must be affected by mental conditions; for instance,it being, as you say, not materialPubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Are there then two vital powers (material and immaterial)?Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Then you are committed to this—that we live with two lives, die with two deaths?Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya:Theravādin:Nay, that cannot truly be said … .Shwe Zan Aung

This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. VimalaJosephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.

Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Aṭṭhamavagga

Jīvitindriyakathā

Natthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Natthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanāti? Āmantā. Hañci atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“natthi rūpajīvitindriyan”ti.

Atthi arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, atthi arūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, atthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, natthi rūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Atthi arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā, natthi arūpajīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu arūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu rūpajīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—“rūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Āmantā. Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu na vattabbaṁ—“arūpajīvitindriyan”ti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Rūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu arūpajīvitindriyanti? Āmantā. Arūpīnaṁ dhammānaṁ āyu rūpajīvitindriyanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….