Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
8.3 Of the Pleasures of SenseAṭṭhamavagga

Controverted Point: That the kāma-sphere means only the fivefold pleasures of sense.Kāmaguṇakathā

Controverted PointPañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātūti? Theravādin:You admit, do you not, that desire, intention, zest, and joy, and the passion or lust that is involved in each, are all bound up with the fivefold pleasures of sense? How then can you maintain that the kāma-life is only those pleasures?Āmantā. Do you mean that human organs of sense are not co-extensive with kāma-life, the five organs of external sense and the co-ordinating sense, or mind? No, you say (meaning only the pleasures of sense in your proposition); but think again as to mind … Yes, you now say, mind is not kāma-life But was it not said by the Exalted One:Nanu atthi tappaṭisaññutto chandoti? Fivefoldthe world's sense-pleasures be,And mind as sixth, our lore doth rede.Whoso therein doth purge desire,Is thus from ill and sorrow freed?Āmantā. Fivefoldthe world's sense-pleasures be,And mind as sixth, our lore doth rede.Whoso therein doth purge desire,Is thus from ill and sorrow freed?Hañci atthi tappaṭisaññutto chando, no ca vata re vattabbe—Fivefold“pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātū”ti. Hence it cannot be said that the Kāma-life does not include the mind.Nanu atthi tappaṭisaññutto rāgo tappaṭisaññutto chando tappaṭisaññutto chandarāgo tappaṭisaññutto saṅkappo tappaṭisaññutto rāgo tappaṭisaññutto saṅkapparāgo tappaṭisaññuttā pīti tappaṭisaññuttaṁ somanassaṁ tappaṭisaññuttaṁ pītisomanassanti? Again, can you say that the pleasures of sense amount to a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, to renewed life, to a matrix, a station for consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is therekarmaleading to them? Are there beings to be reborn in them? Do beings get born, grow old, die, decease, get reborn “in” sense-pleasures? Are there the five aggregates in them? Are they a five-mode existence? Are Buddhas Supreme, Silent Buddhas, Chief Pairs of disciples reborn in them?All these things you can predicate of the “kāma-element”, but not one of them of the pleasures of sense.Āmantā. Pubbaseliya:But was it not said by the Exalted One:Hañci atthi tappaṭisaññuttaṁ pītisomanassaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—Pubbaseliya:“pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātū”ti.

“Bhikkhus, there are these fivefoldkāma-pleasures—which are they? Objects desirable, sweet, agreeable, dear, connected with “kāma”, and seductive, are cognizable by sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch—these are the five kinds ofkāma-pleasures”?Pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātūti? Hence surely thekāma-element is only those five.Āmantā. Shwe Zan AungManussānaṁ cakkhu na kāmadhātūti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Manfred Wierichmanussānaṁ sotaṁ …pe… Ven. Vimalamanussānaṁ ghānaṁ …pe… Josephine Tobinmanussānaṁ jivhā …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.manussānaṁ kāyo …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātūti? Cross-references were linked.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātūti? Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.Āmantā. The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/“Pañca kāmaguṇā loke, All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.manocchaṭṭhā paveditā; Ettha chandaṁ virājetvā, evaṁ dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi na vattabbaṁ—“manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātū”ti.

Pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātūti? Āmantā. Kāmaguṇā bhavo gati sattāvāso saṁsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi kāmaguṇūpagaṁ kammanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi kāmaguṇūpagā sattāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmaguṇe sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmaguṇe atthi rūpaṁ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmaguṇā pañcavokārabhavoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmaguṇe sammāsambuddhā uppajjanti, paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti, sāvakayugaṁ uppajjatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Kāmadhātu bhavo gati sattāvāso saṁsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti? Āmantā. Kāmaguṇā bhavo gati sattāvāso saṁsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi kāmadhātūpagaṁ kammanti? Āmantā. Atthi kāmaguṇūpagaṁ kammanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi kāmadhātūpagā sattāti? Āmantā. Atthi kāmaguṇūpagā sattāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Kāmadhātuyā sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti? Āmantā. Kāmaguṇe sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmadhātuyā atthi rūpaṁ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti? Āmantā. Kāmaguṇe atthi rūpaṁ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmadhātu pañcavokārabhavoti? Āmantā. Kāmaguṇā pañcavokārabhavoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… kāmadhātuyā sammāsambuddhā uppajjanti, paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti, sāvakayugaṁ uppajjatīti? Āmantā. Kāmaguṇe sammāsambuddhā uppajjanti, paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti, sāvakayugaṁ uppajjatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Na vattabbaṁ—“pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātū”ti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—“pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. Katame pañca? Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe… ghānaviññeyyā gandhā …pe… jivhāviññeyyā rasā …pe… kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā”ti. Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātūti.

Kāmaguṇakathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
8.3 Of the Pleasures of Sense

Controverted Point: That the kāma-sphere means only the fivefold pleasures of sense.

Controverted PointTheravādin:You admit, do you not, that desire, intention, zest, and joy, and the passion or lust that is involved in each, are all bound up with the fivefold pleasures of sense? How then can you maintain that the kāma-life is only those pleasures?Do you mean that human organs of sense are not co-extensive with kāma-life, the five organs of external sense and the co-ordinating sense, or mind? No, you say (meaning only the pleasures of sense in your proposition); but think again as to mind … Yes, you now say, mind is not kāma-life But was it not said by the Exalted One:Fivefoldthe world's sense-pleasures be,And mind as sixth, our lore doth rede.Whoso therein doth purge desire,Is thus from ill and sorrow freed?Fivefoldthe world's sense-pleasures be,And mind as sixth, our lore doth rede.Whoso therein doth purge desire,Is thus from ill and sorrow freed?FivefoldHence it cannot be said that the Kāma-life does not include the mind.Again, can you say that the pleasures of sense amount to a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, to renewed life, to a matrix, a station for consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is therekarmaleading to them? Are there beings to be reborn in them? Do beings get born, grow old, die, decease, get reborn “in” sense-pleasures? Are there the five aggregates in them? Are they a five-mode existence? Are Buddhas Supreme, Silent Buddhas, Chief Pairs of disciples reborn in them?All these things you can predicate of the “kāma-element”, but not one of them of the pleasures of sense.Pubbaseliya:But was it not said by the Exalted One:Pubbaseliya:

“Bhikkhus, there are these fivefoldkāma-pleasures—which are they? Objects desirable, sweet, agreeable, dear, connected with “kāma”, and seductive, are cognizable by sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch—these are the five kinds ofkāma-pleasures”?Hence surely thekāma-element is only those five.Shwe Zan AungThis SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. VimalaJosephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.

Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.

Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Aṭṭhamavagga

Kāmaguṇakathā

Pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātūti? Āmantā. Nanu atthi tappaṭisaññutto chandoti? Āmantā. Hañci atthi tappaṭisaññutto chando, no ca vata re vattabbe—“pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātū”ti. Nanu atthi tappaṭisaññutto rāgo tappaṭisaññutto chando tappaṭisaññutto chandarāgo tappaṭisaññutto saṅkappo tappaṭisaññutto rāgo tappaṭisaññutto saṅkapparāgo tappaṭisaññuttā pīti tappaṭisaññuttaṁ somanassaṁ tappaṭisaññuttaṁ pītisomanassanti? Āmantā. Hañci atthi tappaṭisaññuttaṁ pītisomanassaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātū”ti.

Pañceva kāmaguṇā kāmadhātūti? Āmantā. Manussānaṁ cakkhu na kāmadhātūti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… manussānaṁ sotaṁ …pe… manussānaṁ ghānaṁ …pe… manussānaṁ jivhā …pe… manussānaṁ kāyo …pe… manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātūti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātūti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—

“Pañca kāmaguṇā loke, manocchaṭṭhā paveditā; Ettha chandaṁ virājetvā, evaṁ dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi na vattabbaṁ—“manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātū”ti.

Kāmaguṇakathā niṭṭhitā.

Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
8.3 Of the Pleasures of SenseAṭṭhamavagga

Controverted Point: That the kāma-sphere means only the fivefold pleasures of sense.Kāmaguṇakathā

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/“Pañca kāmaguṇā loke, All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.manocchaṭṭhā paveditā; Ettha chandaṁ virājetvā, evaṁ dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi na vattabbaṁ—“manussānaṁ mano na kāmadhātū”ti.

Kāmaguṇakathā niṭṭhitā.