Controverted PointAtthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Theravādin:You contend that he may have. Yet you deny that in the Arahant there remains any lust, sensuous desires or assailing passion, any “fetter”, “flood”, “bond”, or “hindrance of sensuality”. But this denial commits you to negate your proposition.Āmantā. You admit that the average worldling may have both the one and the other, both the desires and the physical result. But then you must also admit both as true in the case of the Arahant.Atthi arahato rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ kāmarāgasaṁyojanaṁ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmacchandanīvaraṇanti? What is the cause of that physical impurity which you impute to the Arahant?Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:The devas of the Māra group convey it to the Arahant.Natthi arahato rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ kāmarāgasaṁyojanaṁ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmacchandanīvaraṇanti? Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Āmantā. Theravādin:Have then these devas themselves that physical impurity?Hañci natthi arahato rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ kāmarāgasaṁyojanaṁ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmacchandanīvaraṇaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:No, in them it is non-existent.“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Atthi puthujjanassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, atthi tassa rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ kāmarāgasaṁyojanaṁ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmacchandanīvaraṇanti? Theravādin:Then you should not say that they convey it to the Arahant.From whom do they convey it? Not,you affirm, from their own bodies, nor from the Arahant himself, nor from other beingswhich is absurd.You deny also that they effect the conveyance through the pores of the body. Then you should also deny that they convey it at all. Whatdo you allegeis the reason of their conveying it?Āmantā. which is absurdAtthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, atthi tassa rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ …pe… kāmacchandanīvaraṇanti? do you allegeNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Their idea is: “we shall cause doubt as to his attainment to be laid hold of”.Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, natthi tassa rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ …pe… kāmacchandanīvaraṇanti? Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Āmantā. Theravādin:Is there doubt in an Arahant? If you reply “No”, then your argument falls through. Or if you reply “Yes”, then must you herein admit that an Arahant may hold doubts about the Teacher, the Doctrine, the Order, the ethical training, the beginning and end of time—either or both—and about things as happening through assignable causes—which is absurd.The average man holds doubts about such things, but an Arahant does notelse is he like the average man. Or if both hold doubts not on any of these eight points, but on other matters, then again the Arahant is no better than the average man.Atthi puthujjanassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, natthi tassa rāgo kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṁ …pe… kāmacchandanīvaraṇanti? else is he like the average manNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Granting your proposition, to what is the impurity due? You reply, to eating, drinking, chewing, tasting. But you deny that the proposition is true of all who eat, drink, chew, taste. Or, if you maintain the opposite conclusion, you must admit that children, eunuchs, devas eat, drink, etc., yet that the proposition is not true in their case.Nor can you refer to any specific repository for that impurity which you call a result of eating, drinking, etc., similar to that which is provided for the natural results of eating, drinking, etc.Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? If your proposition were true, then the Arahant would pursue and produce things relating to sexual intercourse, live a family life, use Kāsi sandalwood preparations,adorn himself with wreaths, perfumes, and cosmetics, hoard gold and silver, like any average man, concerning whom your proposition were true.But how can it be true of the Arahant who, as you admit, has put away passion, has cut it off at the root, and made it as the stump of a palm tree, made it incapable of rising up again in future renewal?—of the Arahant who has treated in like manner hate, ignorance, conceit, error, doubt, sloth, distraction, impudence, and indiscretion?Āmantā. How, again, should it be true of one who, like the Arahant, has cultivated the means for the putting away of passion, etc., and all the other factors of enlightenment?How should it be true of one who, like the Arahant, hasconsummated as havingdone with lust, done with hate, done with nescience, by whom that which was to be done is done, by whom the burden is laid down, by whom the good supreme is won, and the fetter of becoming is wholly broken away, who is emancipated through perfect knowledge, who has lifted the bar, has filled up the trenches, is a drawer-out, is without lock or bolt, an Ariyan, of one for whom the banner is lowered, the burden is fallen, who is detached, conqueror of a realm well-conquered, who has comprehended Ill, has put away the cause thereof, has realized the cessation thereof, has cultivated the Path thereto, who has understood that which is to be understood, comprehended that which is to be comprehended, put away that which is to be put away, developed that which is to be developed, realized that which is to be realized?Kenaṭṭhenāti? consummated as havingHanda hi mārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti.

Do you still maintain your proposition?Mārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti? Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Yes, but only in the case of an Arahant who is proficient in his own field, not of an Arahant who is proficient in other things.Āmantā. Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Atthi mārakāyikānaṁ devatānaṁ asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Theravādin:But how can you maintain it in the one case without admitting it as true in the other?The former has the qualities and requisites of Arahantship no less than the other; both have equally put away passion, and so on.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

How can you maintain your proposition when you admit that there is a Suttanta in which the Exalted One said:Natthi mārakāyikānaṁ devatānaṁ asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? “Bhikkhus! thosebhikkhuswho are but average men, yet are proficient in virtue and are mindful and reflective, can go to sleep without impure discharge. Those Rishis who are outsiders, yet are devoid of passion in matters of sense, have also no impure discharge. That an Arahant should have impure discharge is anomalous and unnatural”.Āmantā. Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Is the proposition untrue?Hañci natthi mārakāyikānaṁ devatānaṁ asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, no ca vata re vattabbe—Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:“mārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantī”ti.

Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:But if you admit that others may convey to the Arahant clothing, alms, bedding, or medicine, surely my propositionas involving conveyance of something by anotheris tenable?Mārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti? Pubbaseliya, Aparaseliya:Āmantā. as involving conveyance of something by anotherMārakāyikā devatā attano asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharanti, aññesaṁ asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharanti, tassa asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti? Theravādin:But is everything beyond those four requisites conveyable? Could others convey to the Arahant the fruition of Stream-Winning, of Once-Returning, of Never-Returning, or of Arahantship? No? Then your argument cannot hold.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Shwe Zan AungMārakāyikā devatā neva attano na aññesaṁ na tassa asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Āmantā. Manfred WierichHañci mārakāyikā devatā neva attano na aññesaṁ na tassa asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharanti, no ca vata re vattabbe—Ven. Vimala“mārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantī”ti.

Josephine TobinMārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti? Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Āmantā. Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Lomakūpehi upasaṁharantīti? Cross-references were linked.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Mārakāyikā devatā arahato asuciṁ sukkavissaṭṭhiṁ upasaṁharantīti? Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.Āmantā. The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Kiṁ kāraṇāti? This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Handa hi vimatiṁ gāhayissāmāti. All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.Atthi arahato vimatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi arahato vimatīti? Āmantā. Atthi arahato satthari vimati, dhamme vimati, saṅghe vimati, sikkhāya vimati, pubbante vimati, aparante vimati, pubbantāparante vimati, idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi arahato satthari vimati, dhamme vimati, saṅghe vimati, sikkhāya vimati, pubbante vimati, aparante vimati, pubbantāparante vimati, idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimatīti? Āmantā. Hañci natthi arahato satthari vimati …pe… idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimati, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato vimatī”ti.

Atthi puthujjanassa vimati, atthi tassa satthari vimati …pe… idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimatīti? Āmantā. Atthi arahato vimati, atthi tassa satthari vimati …pe… idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi arahato vimati, natthi tassa satthari vimati …pe… idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimatīti? Āmantā. Atthi puthujjanassa vimati, natthi tassa satthari vimati …pe… idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppannesu dhammesu vimatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi kissa nissandoti? Asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissandoti. Arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissandoti? Āmantā. Ye keci asanti pivanti khādanti sāyanti, sabbesaṁyeva atthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Ye keci asanti pivanti khādanti sāyanti, sabbesaṁyeva atthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Dārakā asanti pivanti khādanti sāyanti, atthi dārakānaṁ asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.

Paṇḍakā asanti pivanti khādanti sāyanti, atthi paṇḍakānaṁ asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Devā asanti pivanti khādanti sāyanti, atthi devatānaṁ asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissandoti? Āmantā. Atthi tassa āsayoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Arahato uccārapassāvo asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissando, atthi tassa āsayoti? Āmantā. Arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissando, atthi tassa āsayoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissando, natthi tassa āsayoti? Āmantā. Arahato uccārapassāvo asitapītakhāyitasāyitassa nissando, natthi tassa āsayoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Arahā methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭiseveyya, methunaṁ uppādeyya, puttasambādhasayanaṁ ajjhāvaseyya, kāsikacandanaṁ paccanubhaveyya, mālāgandhavilepanaṁ dhāreyya, jātarūparajataṁ sādiyeyyāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.

Atthi puthujjanassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, puthujjano methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭiseveyya, methunaṁ uppādeyya, puttasambādhasayanaṁ ajjhāvaseyya, kāsikacandanaṁ paccanubhaveyya, mālāgandhavilepanaṁ dhāreyya, jātarūparajataṁ sādiyeyyāti? Āmantā. Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, arahā methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭiseveyya, methunaṁ uppādeyya, puttasambādhasayanaṁ ajjhāvaseyya, kāsikacandanaṁ paccanubhaveyya, mālāgandhavilepanaṁ dhāreyya, jātarūparajataṁ sādiyeyyāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, na ca arahā methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭiseveyya, methunaṁ uppādeyya, puttasambādhasayanaṁ ajjhāvaseyya, kāsikacandanaṁ paccanubhaveyya, mālāgandhavilepanaṁ dhāreyya, jātarūparajataṁ sādiyeyyāti? Āmantā. Atthi puthujjanassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, na ca puthujjano methunaṁ dhammaṁ paṭiseveyya, methunaṁ uppādeyya, puttasambādhasayanaṁ ajjhāvaseyya, kāsikacandanaṁ paccanubhaveyya, mālāgandhavilepanaṁ dhāreyya, jātarūparajataṁ sādiyeyyāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu arahato rāgo pahīno ucchinnamūlo tālāvatthukato anabhāvaṅkato āyatiṁ anuppādadhammoti? Āmantā. Hañci arahato rāgo pahīno ucchinnamūlo tālāvatthukato anabhāvaṅkato āyatiṁ anuppādadhammo, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu arahato doso pahīno …pe… moho pahīno … māno pahīno … diṭṭhi pahīnā … vicikicchā pahīnā … thinaṁ pahīnaṁ … uddhaccaṁ pahīnaṁ … ahirikaṁ pahīnaṁ …pe… anottappaṁ pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammanti? Āmantā. Hañci arahato anottappaṁ pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu arahato rāgappahānāya maggo bhāvitoti? Āmantā. Hañci arahato rāgappahānāya maggo bhāvito, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu arahato rāgappahānāya satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā …pe… sammappadhānā bhāvitā … iddhipādā bhāvitā … indriyā bhāvitā … balā bhāvitā …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitāti? Āmantā. Hañci arahato rāgappahānāya bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu arahato dosappahānāya …pe… mohappahānāya …pe… anottappapahānāya maggo bhāvito …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitāti? Āmantā. Hañci arahato anottappapahānāya bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu arahā vītarāgo vītadoso vītamoho katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto ukkhittapaligho saṅkiṇṇaparikho abbūḷhesiko niraggaḷo ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaññutto suvijitavijayo, dukkhaṁ tassa pariññātaṁ, samudayo pahīno, nirodho sacchikato, maggo bhāvito, abhiññeyyaṁ abhiññātaṁ, pariññeyyaṁ pariññātaṁ, pahātabbaṁ pahīnaṁ, bhāvetabbaṁ bhāvitaṁ, sacchikātabbaṁ sacchikatanti? Āmantā. Hañci arahā vītarāgo vītadoso vītamoho katakaraṇīyo …pe… sacchikātabbaṁ sacchikataṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Sadhammakusalassa arahato atthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhi, paradhammakusalassa arahato natthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti. Sadhammakusalassa arahato atthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Paradhammakusalassa arahato atthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paradhammakusalassa arahato natthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Sadhammakusalassa arahato natthi asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sadhammakusalassa arahato rāgo pahīno, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Paradhammakusalassa arahato rāgo pahīno, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sadhammakusalassa arahato doso pahīno …pe… moho pahīno …pe… anottappaṁ pahīnaṁ, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Paradhammakusalassa arahato anottappaṁ pahīnaṁ, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sadhammakusalassa arahato rāgappahānāya maggo bhāvito …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā …pe… dosappahānāya …pe… mohappahānāya …pe… anottappapahānāya maggo bhāvito …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Paradhammakusalassa arahato anottappapahānāya bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sadhammakusalo arahā vītarāgo vītadoso vītamoho …pe… sacchikātabbaṁ sacchikataṁ, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Paradhammakusalo arahā vītarāgo vītadoso vītamoho …pe… sacchikātabbaṁ sacchikataṁ, atthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paradhammakusalassa arahato rāgo pahīno, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Sadhammakusalassa arahato rāgo pahīno, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paradhammakusalassa arahato doso pahīno …pe… moho pahīno …pe… anottappaṁ pahīnaṁ, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Sadhammakusalassa arahato anottappaṁ pahīnaṁ, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paradhammakusalassa arahato rāgappahānāya maggo bhāvito …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā …pe… dosappahānāya …pe… mohappahānāya …pe… anottappapahānāya maggo bhāvito …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Sadhammakusalassa arahato anottappapahānāya bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paradhammakusalo arahā vītarāgo vītadoso vītamoho …pe… sacchikātabbaṁ sacchikataṁ, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Sadhammakusalo arahā vītarāgo vītadoso vītamoho …pe… sacchikātabbaṁ sacchikataṁ, natthi tassa asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhīti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—“ye te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū puthujjanā sīlasampannā satā sampajānā niddaṁ okkamanti, tesaṁ asuci na muccati. Yepi te, bhikkhave, bāhirakā isayo kāmesu vītarāgā, tesampi asuci na muccati. Aṭṭhānametaṁ, bhikkhave, anavakāso yaṁ arahato asuci mucceyyā”ti. Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi na vattabbaṁ—“atthi arahato asuci sukkavissaṭṭhī”ti.

Na vattabbaṁ—“atthi arahato parūpahāro”ti? Āmantā. Nanu arahato cīvarapiṇḍapātasenāsanagilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṁ pare upasaṁhareyyunti? Āmantā. Hañci arahato cīvarapiṇḍapātasenāsanagilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṁ pare upasaṁhareyyuṁ, tena vata re vattabbe—“atthi arahato parūpahāro”ti.

Arahato cīvarapiṇḍapātasenāsanagilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṁ pare upasaṁhareyyunti, atthi arahato parūpahāroti? Āmantā. Arahato sotāpattiphalaṁ vā sakadāgāmiphalaṁ vā anāgāmiphalaṁ vā arahattaṁ vā pare upasaṁhareyyunti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Parūpahārakathā niṭṭhitā.