Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyNiyāmapaṇṇāsaka
6.2 Of Causal GenesisChaṭṭhavagga

Controverted Point: That the causal elements in the law of causal genesis are unconditioned.Paṭiccasamuppādakathā

Controverted PointPaṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? This is exactly similar to the opening argument inKv 6.1Āmantā. Theravādin:Would you say that any single term in each clause of the formula of causal genesis refers to something unconditioned, for instance, “ignorance”, or “karma”, in the clause “because of ignorance,karma”, etc.? No? Then how can you maintain your thesis?Nibbānaṁ tāṇaṁ leṇaṁ saraṇaṁ parāyanaṁ accutaṁ amatanti? Pubbaseliya, Mahiṁsāsaka:If we are wrong, why did the Exalted One say as follows:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Pubbaseliya, Mahiṁsāsaka:paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhato, nibbānaṁ asaṅkhatanti? “`Because of birth,bhikkhus, comes decay and death'; whether Tathāgatas arise or not, this element stands as the establishing of things as effects, as the marking out of things as effects, as the cause of this or that. Concerning this element a Tathāgata becomes enlightened, and penetrates it. Thus enlightened and penetrating, he declares, teaches, makes known, lays it down, reveals, dispenses, makes manifest, and behold! he saith: `Because of birth,bhikkhus, comes decay and death'. `Because of the tendency to become comes birth. Because of … and so on, back to'. `Because of ignorance comeskarma'. Thus,bhikkhus, this element, stable, constant, immutable, is called a causal termin the law of causal genesis”?Āmantā. in the law of causal genesisDve asaṅkhatānīti? Surely then the causal element in that law is unconditioned.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Theravādin:In the clause “Because of ignorancekarma”, the former is that which establishes, which marks out the latter as its effect. AndNibbānais unconditioned—you affirm both of these? Yes? Then are there two unconditioneds? … two shelters … (as in)?dve asaṅkhatānīti? And if in the next clause: “Because ofkarma, consciousness”, you affirm thatkarmais unconditioned, are there then three unconditioneds? … .Āmantā. And so on, affirming that each of the remaining nine terms andNibbānaare unconditioned: are there then twelve unconditioneds? … twelve shelters, twelve refuges, etc.?Dve tāṇāni dve leṇāni dve saraṇāni dve parāyanāni dve accutāni dve amatāni dve nibbānānīti? Of course you deny, hence you cannot affirm that the causal term in the law of causal genesis is unconditioned.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Shwe Zan Aungdve nibbānānīti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Āmantā. Manfred WierichAtthi dvinnaṁ nibbānānaṁ uccanīcatā hīnapaṇītatā ukkaṁsāvakaṁso sīmā vā bhedo vā rāji vā antarikā vāti? Ven. VimalaNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Josephine TobinPaṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Āmantā. Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Avijjā asaṅkhatāti? Cross-references were linked.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.avijjā saṅkhatāti? Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.Āmantā. The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā asaṅkhatāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā saṅkhatāti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ saṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ saṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ saṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Na vattabbaṁ—“paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhato”ti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā—“jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṁ. Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṁ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti. Abhisambujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttāniṁ karoti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha—jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṁ. Bhavapaccayā, bhikkhave, jāti …pe… avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā. Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ ṭhitāva sā dhātu …pe… ‘passathā’ti cāha—avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā—ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo”ti. Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti.

“Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā, nibbānaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Dve asaṅkhatānīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… dve asaṅkhatānīti? Āmantā. Dve tāṇāni …pe… antarikā vāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

“Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā, “saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇan”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā, nibbānaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Tīṇi asaṅkhatānīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe…. Tīṇi asaṅkhatānīti? Āmantā. Tīṇi tāṇāni …pe… antarikā vāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

“Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā, “saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇan”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā …pe… “jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā, nibbānaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Dvādasa asaṅkhatānīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… dvādasa asaṅkhatānīti? Āmantā. Dvādasa tāṇāni dvādasa leṇāni …pe… antarikā vāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paṭiccasamuppādakathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
6.2 Of Causal Genesis

Controverted Point: That the causal elements in the law of causal genesis are unconditioned.

Controverted PointThis is exactly similar to the opening argument inKv 6.1Theravādin:Would you say that any single term in each clause of the formula of causal genesis refers to something unconditioned, for instance, “ignorance”, or “karma”, in the clause “because of ignorance,karma”, etc.? No? Then how can you maintain your thesis?Pubbaseliya, Mahiṁsāsaka:If we are wrong, why did the Exalted One say as follows:Pubbaseliya, Mahiṁsāsaka:“`Because of birth,bhikkhus, comes decay and death'; whether Tathāgatas arise or not, this element stands as the establishing of things as effects, as the marking out of things as effects, as the cause of this or that. Concerning this element a Tathāgata becomes enlightened, and penetrates it. Thus enlightened and penetrating, he declares, teaches, makes known, lays it down, reveals, dispenses, makes manifest, and behold! he saith: `Because of birth,bhikkhus, comes decay and death'. `Because of the tendency to become comes birth. Because of … and so on, back to'. `Because of ignorance comeskarma'. Thus,bhikkhus, this element, stable, constant, immutable, is called a causal termin the law of causal genesis”?in the law of causal genesisSurely then the causal element in that law is unconditioned.Theravādin:In the clause “Because of ignorancekarma”, the former is that which establishes, which marks out the latter as its effect. AndNibbānais unconditioned—you affirm both of these? Yes? Then are there two unconditioneds? … two shelters … (as in)?And if in the next clause: “Because ofkarma, consciousness”, you affirm thatkarmais unconditioned, are there then three unconditioneds? … .And so on, affirming that each of the remaining nine terms andNibbānaare unconditioned: are there then twelve unconditioneds? … twelve shelters, twelve refuges, etc.?Of course you deny, hence you cannot affirm that the causal term in the law of causal genesis is unconditioned.Shwe Zan AungThis SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. Vimala

Josephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.

Kathāvatthu
Niyāmapaṇṇāsaka
Chaṭṭhavagga

Paṭiccasamuppādakathā

Paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Nibbānaṁ tāṇaṁ leṇaṁ saraṇaṁ parāyanaṁ accutaṁ amatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhato, nibbānaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Dve asaṅkhatānīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… dve asaṅkhatānīti? Āmantā. Dve tāṇāni dve leṇāni dve saraṇāni dve parāyanāni dve accutāni dve amatāni dve nibbānānīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… dve nibbānānīti? Āmantā. Atthi dvinnaṁ nibbānānaṁ uccanīcatā hīnapaṇītatā ukkaṁsāvakaṁso sīmā vā bhedo vā rāji vā antarikā vāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Avijjā asaṅkhatāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… avijjā saṅkhatāti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā asaṅkhatāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā saṅkhatāti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ saṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ saṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti? Āmantā. Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ saṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Paṭiccasamuppādo saṅkhatoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Paṭiccasamuppādakathā niṭṭhitā.

Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyNiyāmapaṇṇāsaka
6.2 Of Causal GenesisChaṭṭhavagga

Controverted Point: That the causal elements in the law of causal genesis are unconditioned.Paṭiccasamuppādakathā

Paṭiccasamuppādakathā niṭṭhitā.