Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
8.7 Of the Senses in the Rūpa-SphereAṭṭhamavagga

Controverted Point: That in the Rūpa-sphere the individual has all the six senses.Rūpadhātuyāāyatanakathā

Controverted PointAtthi saḷāyataniko attabhāvo rūpadhātuyāti? Theravādin:If that be so, and one in that sphere have, say, the sense of smell, you must admit odorous objects for him to smell; and so too for the senses of taste and touch.But you deny the existence, in that sphere, of such objects.Yet it seems only rational that, admitting, as you do, the existence in that sphere of both organ and object in the case of sight, hearing, andsense-co-ordination ormind, you should admit no less as to the other fields ofsense, once you affirm the existence, in that sphere, of any of the other sense-organs.“No”, you say. You are prepared to admit organs of sight, hearing, and co-ordination, and corresponding objects seen, heard, and cognized by those organs; yet while you admit the other sense-organs, you deny the existence of their objects.In fact, even if you were to concede the existence, in that sphere, of objects odorous, sapid, and tangible, you would, you say, deny they were apprehended by the corresponding organs, though you admit the corresponding apprehension in the case of sight, etc.Āmantā. sense-co-ordination orAtthi tattha ghānāyatananti? But there are among you some who would admit this apprehension of odours, tastes, and touches by the respective organs, the existence of which you affirm. I would ask them whether there exists in that sphere the odour of roots, pith, bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, raw flesh, poisonous, pleasant, or evil odours; whether there exists there also the taste of roots, pith, bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, or sour, sweet, bitter, pungent, saline, alkaline, acrid, astringent, nice, or nauseous tastes; whether there exist there also hard and soft, smooth and rough, pleasant and painful contacts, heavy and light tangibles?Youdeny that any of these does exist in that sphere … .Āmantā. Andhaka, Sammitiya:But is there not in that sphere the wherewithal for smelling, tasting, touching?Atthi tattha gandhāyatananti? Andhaka, Sammitiya:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Andhaka, Sammitiya:Surely then it is right to say that in the Rūpa-element the individual has all six senses?atthi tattha jivhāyatananti? Andhaka, Sammitiya:Āmantā. Shwe Zan AungAtthi tattha rasāyatananti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Manfred Wierichatthi tattha kāyāyatananti? Ven. VimalaĀmantā. Josephine TobinAtthi tattha phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Natthi tattha gandhāyatananti? Cross-references were linked.Āmantā. Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Natthi tattha ghānāyatananti? Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.natthi tattha rasāyatananti? This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/Āmantā. All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.Natthi tattha jivhāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… natthi tattha phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Āmantā. Natthi tattha kāyāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ, atthi rūpāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ, atthi gandhāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ, atthi rūpāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ, atthi rasāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ, atthi phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha sotāyatanaṁ, atthi saddāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ, atthi dhammāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ, atthi gandhāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ, atthi dhammāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ, atthi rasāyatananti …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ, atthi phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ, natthi gandhāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ, natthi rūpāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ, natthi gandhāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha sotāyatanaṁ, natthi saddāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ, natthi dhammāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ, natthi rasāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ, natthi phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ, natthi rūpāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ, natthi phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha sotāyatanaṁ, natthi saddāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ, natthi dhammāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ atthi rūpāyatanaṁ, tena cakkhunā taṁ rūpaṁ passatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ atthi gandhāyatanaṁ, tena ghānena taṁ gandhaṁ ghāyatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ atthi rūpāyatanaṁ, tena cakkhunā taṁ rūpaṁ passatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ atthi rasāyatanaṁ, tāya jivhāya taṁ rasaṁ sāyati …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ atthi phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ, tena kāyena taṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha sotāyatanaṁ atthi saddāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ atthi dhammāyatanaṁ, tena manena taṁ dhammaṁ vijānātīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ atthi gandhāyatanaṁ, tena ghānena taṁ gandhaṁ ghāyatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ atthi dhammāyatanaṁ, tena manena taṁ dhammaṁ vijānātīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ atthi rasāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ atthi phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ, tena kāyena taṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ atthi gandhāyatanaṁ, na ca tena ghānena taṁ gandhaṁ ghāyatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha cakkhāyatanaṁ atthi rūpāyatanaṁ, na ca tena cakkhunā taṁ rūpaṁ passatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ atthi gandhāyatanaṁ, na ca tena ghānena taṁ gandhaṁ ghāyatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha sotāyatanaṁ atthi saddāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ atthi dhammāyatanaṁ, na ca tena manena taṁ dhammaṁ vijānātīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ atthi rasāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ atthi phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ, na ca tena kāyena taṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha sotāyatanaṁ atthi saddāyatanaṁ …pe… atthi tattha manāyatanaṁ atthi dhammāyatanaṁ, na ca tena manena taṁ dhammaṁ vijānātīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe…

Atthi tattha ghānāyatanaṁ atthi gandhāyatanaṁ, tena ghānena taṁ gandhaṁ ghāyatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha mūlagandho sāragandho tacagandho pattagandho pupphagandho phalagandho āmagandho vissagandho sugandho duggandhoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha jivhāyatanaṁ atthi rasāyatanaṁ, tāya jivhāya taṁ rasaṁ sāyatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha mūlaraso khandharaso tacaraso pattaraso puppharaso phalaraso ambilaṁ madhuraṁ tittakaṁ kaṭukaṁ loṇiyaṁ khāriyaṁ lambilaṁ kasāvo sādu asādūti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi tattha kāyāyatanaṁ atthi phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ, tena kāyena taṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusatīti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha kakkhaḷaṁ mudukaṁ saṇhaṁ pharusaṁ sukhasamphassaṁ dukkhasamphassaṁ garukaṁ lahukanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Na vattabbaṁ—“saḷāyataniko attabhāvo rūpadhātuyā”ti? Āmantā. Nanu atthi tattha ghānanimittaṁ jivhānimittaṁ kāyanimittanti? Āmantā. Hañci atthi tattha ghānanimittaṁ jivhānimittaṁ kāyanimittaṁ, tena vata re vattabbe—“saḷāyataniko attabhāvo rūpadhātuyā”ti.

Rūpadhātuyā āyatanakathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
8.7 Of the Senses in the Rūpa-Sphere

Controverted Point: That in the Rūpa-sphere the individual has all the six senses.

Controverted PointTheravādin:If that be so, and one in that sphere have, say, the sense of smell, you must admit odorous objects for him to smell; and so too for the senses of taste and touch.But you deny the existence, in that sphere, of such objects.Yet it seems only rational that, admitting, as you do, the existence in that sphere of both organ and object in the case of sight, hearing, andsense-co-ordination ormind, you should admit no less as to the other fields ofsense, once you affirm the existence, in that sphere, of any of the other sense-organs.“No”, you say. You are prepared to admit organs of sight, hearing, and co-ordination, and corresponding objects seen, heard, and cognized by those organs; yet while you admit the other sense-organs, you deny the existence of their objects.In fact, even if you were to concede the existence, in that sphere, of objects odorous, sapid, and tangible, you would, you say, deny they were apprehended by the corresponding organs, though you admit the corresponding apprehension in the case of sight, etc.sense-co-ordination orBut there are among you some who would admit this apprehension of odours, tastes, and touches by the respective organs, the existence of which you affirm. I would ask them whether there exists in that sphere the odour of roots, pith, bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, raw flesh, poisonous, pleasant, or evil odours; whether there exists there also the taste of roots, pith, bark, leaves, flowers, fruit, or sour, sweet, bitter, pungent, saline, alkaline, acrid, astringent, nice, or nauseous tastes; whether there exist there also hard and soft, smooth and rough, pleasant and painful contacts, heavy and light tangibles?Youdeny that any of these does exist in that sphere … .Andhaka, Sammitiya:But is there not in that sphere the wherewithal for smelling, tasting, touching?Andhaka, Sammitiya:Andhaka, Sammitiya:Surely then it is right to say that in the Rūpa-element the individual has all six senses?Andhaka, Sammitiya:Shwe Zan AungThis SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. VimalaJosephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.

Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.

Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Aṭṭhamavagga

Rūpadhātuyāāyatanakathā

Atthi saḷāyataniko attabhāvo rūpadhātuyāti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha ghānāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha gandhāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha jivhāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha rasāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… atthi tattha kāyāyatananti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi tattha gandhāyatananti? Āmantā. Natthi tattha ghānāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… natthi tattha rasāyatananti? Āmantā. Natthi tattha jivhāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… natthi tattha phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Āmantā. Natthi tattha kāyāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Rūpadhātuyā āyatanakathā niṭṭhitā.

Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
8.7 Of the Senses in the Rūpa-SphereAṭṭhamavagga

Controverted Point: That in the Rūpa-sphere the individual has all the six senses.Rūpadhātuyāāyatanakathā

Rūpadhātuyā āyatanakathā niṭṭhitā.