Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
3.10 Of Moral RestraintTatiyavagga

Controverted Point: That there is self-control among devas.Saṁvarakathā

Controverted PointAtthi devesu saṁvaroti? Theravādin:Since you affirm its existence, you imply alsothat there may beabsence of it among devas. You deny this, meaning that there is no want of it among devas. Then you imply that there is noneed ofself-control among them—this again you deny, by your proposition.Āmantā. that there may beAtthi devesu asaṁvaroti? need ofNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Granting that virtue is restraint from absence of self-restraint, does this restraint exist among devas? “Yes”, you say, but you are hereby implying also the coexistence of absence of self-restraint. And this you deny.Natthi devesu asaṁvaroti? Yetyou admit the coexistence among humans. Why not among devas?For instance, you say “devas abstain from taking life, from intoxicating drinks”. Yet you deny that these vices are found among them.You contend they are not found among them, yet you will not allow that restraint from them is not found either,although you allow the coexistence of both among men.Āmantā. Opponent:But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .Natthi devesu saṁvaroti? Opponent:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Shwe Zan AungNanu asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaroti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Āmantā. Manfred WierichAtthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlanti? Ven. VimalaNa hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Josephine TobinĀjānāhi niggahaṁ. Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Hañci asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro, tena vata re vattabbe—Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.“atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan”ti. Cross-references were linked.Yaṁ tattha vadesi—Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.“vattabbe kho—Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.‘asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro’, no ca vattabbe—The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.‘atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan’”ti micchā.

This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/No ce pana vattabbe—All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.“atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan”ti, no ca vata re vattabbe—“asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro”ti. Yaṁ tattha vadesi—“vattabbe kho ‘asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro’, no ca vattabbe—‘atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan’”ti micchā.

Atthi manussesu saṁvaro, atthi tattha asaṁvaroti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu saṁvaro, atthi tattha asaṁvaroti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi devesu saṁvaro, natthi tattha asaṁvaroti? Āmantā. Atthi manussesu saṁvaro, natthi tattha asaṁvaroti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇīti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu pāṇātipātoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇīti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi devesu pāṇātipātoti? Āmantā. Natthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti? Āmantā. Natthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi manussesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, atthi tattha pāṇātipātoti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, atthi tattha pāṇātipātoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi manussesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, atthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, atthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, natthi tattha pāṇātipātoti? Āmantā. Atthi manussesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, natthi tattha pāṇātipātoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, natthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti? Āmantā. Atthi manussesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, natthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi devesu saṁvaroti? Āmantā. Sabbe devā pāṇātipātino adinnādāyino kāmesumicchācārino musāvādino surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhāyinoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… tena hi atthi devesu saṁvaroti.

Saṁvarakathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
3.10 Of Moral Restraint

Controverted Point: That there is self-control among devas.

Controverted PointTheravādin:Since you affirm its existence, you imply alsothat there may beabsence of it among devas. You deny this, meaning that there is no want of it among devas. Then you imply that there is noneed ofself-control among them—this again you deny, by your proposition.that there may beneed of

Granting that virtue is restraint from absence of self-restraint, does this restraint exist among devas? “Yes”, you say, but you are hereby implying also the coexistence of absence of self-restraint. And this you deny.Yetyou admit the coexistence among humans. Why not among devas?For instance, you say “devas abstain from taking life, from intoxicating drinks”. Yet you deny that these vices are found among them.You contend they are not found among them, yet you will not allow that restraint from them is not found either,although you allow the coexistence of both among men.Opponent:But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .Opponent:

Shwe Zan AungThis SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. Vimala

Josephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.

Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Tatiyavagga

Saṁvarakathā

Atthi devesu saṁvaroti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu asaṁvaroti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Natthi devesu asaṁvaroti? Āmantā. Natthi devesu saṁvaroti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Nanu asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaroti? Āmantā. Atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Ājānāhi niggahaṁ. Hañci asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro, tena vata re vattabbe—“atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan”ti. Yaṁ tattha vadesi—“vattabbe kho—‘asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro’, no ca vattabbe—‘atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan’”ti micchā.

No ce pana vattabbe—“atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan”ti, no ca vata re vattabbe—“asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro”ti. Yaṁ tattha vadesi—“vattabbe kho ‘asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlaṁ, atthi devesu saṁvaro’, no ca vattabbe—‘atthi devesu asaṁvaro, yamhā asaṁvarā saṁvaro sīlan’”ti micchā.