Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
10.7 Of Virtue or Morality as AutomaticDasamavagga

Controverted Point: That virtuous conduct is automatic (and not a property of consciousness).Sīlaṁacetasikantikathā

Controverted PointSīlaṁ acetasikanti? Theravādin:But is virtue either material qualities, orNibbāna, or an organ or object of sensesince these are the opposites of properties of mind? …You would not call mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, understanding,unmental. But if virtue cannot be identified with anything that is not mental, it must be a property of mind … .Āmantā. since these are the opposites of properties of mindRūpaṁ …pe… If virtue be no property of consciousness, you must affirm that it has not a result consciously sought after. Is not the opposite true? But if it has a result to be desired, it is also something mental … The mental properties just enumerated—they have both consciously desired results and are mental. In admitting this, you must also admit that virtue is of the same dual character. But you contend that virtue, on the contrary, is so anomalous as tohavea consciously desired result, yet tobenot mental … .nibbānaṁ … Again, if virtue be not a thing of the mind, you must admit that it has not a result, not an effectinfuture consciousness; yet is it not precisely something having such a result and effect? You would surely not say that it is non-mental and not productive of effect, as you would admit in the case of an organ or object of sense? Again, you would not consider that these non-mentals have such a result; yet this is what you say of virtue: that it is both non-mental and yet fruitful of results in consciousness.Cakkhāyatanaṁ …pe… infuture consciousnesskāyāyatanaṁ … With reference to the Path-factors, you would call the three factors relating to virtuous conduct non-mental, while calling the other five mentalwhich you are not justified in doing.rūpāyatanaṁ …pe… which you are not justified in doing.phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Mahāsaṅghika:But if I am wrong, you must then admit that when virtuous acts have ceased, the doer becomesimmoral. You deny this? Then I am right to say that virtue isi.e., goes onwithout mind, mechanically.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Mahāsaṅghika:sīlaṁ acetasikanti? i.e., goes onĀmantā. Shwe Zan AungPhasso acetasikoti? This SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… Manfred Wierichsīlaṁ acetasikanti? Ven. VimalaĀmantā. Josephine TobinVedanā …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.saññā …pe… Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.cetanā …pe… Cross-references were linked.saddhā …pe… Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.vīriyaṁ …pe… Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.sati …pe… The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.samādhi …pe… This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/paññā acetasikāti? All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Phasso cetasikoti? Āmantā. Sīlaṁ cetasikanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… vedanā …pe… saññā …pe… cetanā …pe… saddhā …pe… vīriyaṁ …pe… sati …pe… samādhi …pe… paññā cetasikāti? Āmantā. Sīlaṁ cetasikanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Aniṭṭhaphalanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… nanu iṭṭhaphalanti? Āmantā. Hañci iṭṭhaphalaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti.

Saddhā iṭṭhaphalā, saddhā cetasikāti? Āmantā. Sīlaṁ iṭṭhaphalaṁ, sīlaṁ cetasikanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… vīriyaṁ …pe… sati …pe… samādhi …pe… paññā iṭṭhaphalā, paññā cetasikāti? Āmantā. Sīlaṁ iṭṭhaphalaṁ, sīlaṁ cetasikanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sīlaṁ iṭṭhaphalaṁ, sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Saddhā iṭṭhaphalā, saddhā acetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sīlaṁ iṭṭhaphalaṁ, sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Vīriyaṁ …pe… sati …pe… samādhi …pe… paññā iṭṭhaphalā, paññā acetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Aphalaṁ avipākanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… nanu saphalaṁ savipākanti? Āmantā. Hañci saphalaṁ savipākaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti …pe….

Cakkhāyatanaṁ acetasikaṁ avipākanti? Āmantā. Sīlaṁ acetasikaṁ avipākanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sotāyatanaṁ …pe… kāyāyatanaṁ …pe… rūpāyatanaṁ …pe… phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ acetasikaṁ avipākanti? Āmantā. Sīlaṁ acetasikaṁ avipākanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sīlaṁ acetasikaṁ savipākanti? Āmantā. Cakkhāyatanaṁ acetasikaṁ savipākanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sīlaṁ acetasikaṁ savipākanti? Āmantā. Sotāyatanaṁ …pe… kāyāyatanaṁ … rūpāyatanaṁ …pe… phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ acetasikaṁ savipākanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe…

Sammāvācā acetasikāti? Āmantā. Sammādiṭṭhi acetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sammāvācā acetasikāti? Āmantā. Sammāsaṅkappo …pe… sammāvāyāmo …pe… sammāsati …pe… sammāsamādhi acetasikoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sammākammanto …pe… sammāājīvo acetasikoti? Āmantā. Sammādiṭṭhi acetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sammāājīvo acetasikoti? Āmantā. Sammāsaṅkappo … sammāvāyāmo … sammāsati … sammāsamādhi acetasikoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sammādiṭṭhi cetasikāti? Āmantā. Sammāvācā cetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sammādiṭṭhi cetasikāti? Āmantā. Sammākammanto …pe… sammāājīvo cetasikoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sammāsaṅkappo …pe… sammāvāyāmo …pe… sammāsati …pe… sammāsamādhi cetasikoti? Āmantā. Sammāvācā cetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sammāsamādhi cetasikoti? Āmantā. Sammākammanto …pe… sammāājīvo cetasikoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Na vattabbaṁ—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti? Āmantā. Sīle uppajjitvā niruddhe dussīlo hotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe. Tena hi sīlaṁ acetasikanti.

Sīlaṁ acetasikantikathā niṭṭhitā.

English Translation

Pāli Text

Points of Controversy
Points of Controversy
10.7 Of Virtue or Morality as Automatic

Controverted Point: That virtuous conduct is automatic (and not a property of consciousness).

Controverted PointTheravādin:But is virtue either material qualities, orNibbāna, or an organ or object of sensesince these are the opposites of properties of mind? …You would not call mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, understanding,unmental. But if virtue cannot be identified with anything that is not mental, it must be a property of mind … .since these are the opposites of properties of mindIf virtue be no property of consciousness, you must affirm that it has not a result consciously sought after. Is not the opposite true? But if it has a result to be desired, it is also something mental … The mental properties just enumerated—they have both consciously desired results and are mental. In admitting this, you must also admit that virtue is of the same dual character. But you contend that virtue, on the contrary, is so anomalous as tohavea consciously desired result, yet tobenot mental … .Again, if virtue be not a thing of the mind, you must admit that it has not a result, not an effectinfuture consciousness; yet is it not precisely something having such a result and effect? You would surely not say that it is non-mental and not productive of effect, as you would admit in the case of an organ or object of sense? Again, you would not consider that these non-mentals have such a result; yet this is what you say of virtue: that it is both non-mental and yet fruitful of results in consciousness.infuture consciousnessWith reference to the Path-factors, you would call the three factors relating to virtuous conduct non-mental, while calling the other five mentalwhich you are not justified in doing.which you are not justified in doing.Mahāsaṅghika:But if I am wrong, you must then admit that when virtuous acts have ceased, the doer becomesimmoral. You deny this? Then I am right to say that virtue isi.e., goes onwithout mind, mechanically.Mahāsaṅghika:i.e., goes onShwe Zan AungThis SuttaCentral edition was prepared byManfred WierichandVen. Vimalaand proofread byJosephine Tobin. Some changes were introduced:Manfred WierichVen. VimalaJosephine TobinAbbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.Abbreviations, i.e., those of cited works and the participants in the controversies, were expanded.Cross-references were linked.Some typographic changes were introduced, among others, i.e.: the phonetic symbol “ŋ” was changed to the Pāli diacritical letter “ṃ”, “ô” to “o”, single quotes to double quotes, and “:—” to “:”.Letter-spacing with fixed spaces was replaced with bold font.The corrigenda were merged into the text. Some could not be resolved, though.This electronic version is published under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 3.0 licence (CC BY-NC 3.0) as found here:http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/All copyright is owned by the Pali Text Society. See also the statement under http://www.palitext.com/ → Publications → Copyright Announcement. For non-commercial use only.

Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Dasamavagga

Sīlaṁacetasikantikathā

Sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Rūpaṁ …pe… nibbānaṁ … Cakkhāyatanaṁ …pe… kāyāyatanaṁ … rūpāyatanaṁ …pe… phoṭṭhabbāyatananti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Phasso acetasikoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Vedanā …pe… saññā …pe… cetanā …pe… saddhā …pe… vīriyaṁ …pe… sati …pe… samādhi …pe… paññā acetasikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….

Sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Aniṭṭhaphalanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… nanu iṭṭhaphalanti? Āmantā. Hañci iṭṭhaphalaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti.

Na vattabbaṁ—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti? Āmantā. Sīle uppajjitvā niruddhe dussīlo hotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe. Tena hi sīlaṁ acetasikanti.

Sīlaṁ acetasikantikathā niṭṭhitā.

Points of ControversyKathāvatthu
Points of ControversyMahāpaṇṇāsaka
10.7 Of Virtue or Morality as AutomaticDasamavagga

Controverted Point: That virtuous conduct is automatic (and not a property of consciousness).Sīlaṁacetasikantikathā

Sīlaṁ acetasikanti? Āmantā. Aniṭṭhaphalanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… nanu iṭṭhaphalanti? Āmantā. Hañci iṭṭhaphalaṁ, no ca vata re vattabbe—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti.

Na vattabbaṁ—“sīlaṁ acetasikan”ti? Āmantā. Sīle uppajjitvā niruddhe dussīlo hotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe. Tena hi sīlaṁ acetasikanti.

Sīlaṁ acetasikantikathā niṭṭhitā.